tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post9057102034024635608..comments2024-03-27T05:47:21.295-07:00Comments on Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature: Objectivism & Religion: Three Common FallaciesDaniel Barneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06359277853862225286noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-38216227230950893612008-12-08T18:45:00.000-08:002008-12-08T18:45:00.000-08:00You know, as good as these points are, it really b...You know, as good as these points are, it really baffles me into the late stage of seeing how far you will go to bash Rand that you would actually defend abhorrent negatives such a religion, just to show that Rand was some how less than perfect somehow intellectually.HerbSewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06612165300491693085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-76014794137239691152008-12-03T21:31:00.000-08:002008-12-03T21:31:00.000-08:00___________________________________But in defense ...___________________________________<BR/><BR/>But in defense of Rand's view of the Greeks, couldn't it be argued that in someways the Greeks were a rather individualistic in way (other than Sparta)? - Damien<BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>You can find individualists in every culture, not just the ancient Greeks.<BR/><BR/><BR/>You can find inclusive (by the standard of the day) reformer like Solons in other cultures as well.Red Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08066324554026925595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-30202785446676471382008-12-03T17:45:00.000-08:002008-12-03T17:45:00.000-08:00I meant to say that "All quotations are written in...I meant to say that "All quotations are written in bold text" in the parenthesis. Sorry about the mistake.Damienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02691850040385670009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-45688603531256931872008-12-03T17:29:00.000-08:002008-12-03T17:29:00.000-08:00Jason Sieckmann,Red Grant,But in defense of Rand's...Jason Sieckmann,<BR/>Red Grant,<BR/><BR/>But in defense of Rand's view of the Greeks, couldn't it be argued that in someways the Greeks were a rather individualistic in way (other than Sparta)? According to my old collage history text, "Western Civilizations, volume1" by Perry, Chase, et tal, <BR/><BR/><B> "unlike the Spartans, they valued political freedom and sought the full development and enrichment of the human personality. Thus while authoritarian Sparta become culturally sterile, Athens, with its relatively free and open society, emerged as the cultural leader of Hellenic civilization." </B> (page 57)<BR/><BR/>The book also talks about an Athenian man named Solon, who helped created a more just society. Solon lived from about 640 to 559 BC. <BR/><BR/><B>"Solon aimed at restoring a sick Athenian society to health by restraining the nobles and improving the lot of the poor. To achieve this goal, he canceled debts, freed Athenians enslaved for debt, and brought back to Athens those who had been sold abroad; however, he refused to confiscate and redistribute the nobles' land as the extremists demanded."</B> (Objectivists, hate any type of state sponsored wealth redistribution, and I generally don't support it either.) <B>"He permitted all classes of free men, even the poorest to sit in the Assembly, which elected magistrates and accepted or rejected legislation proposed by a new Council of Four Hundred. He also opened the highest offices in the state to wealthy commoners, who had previously been excluded from these positions because they lacked noble birth. Thus Solon undermined the traditional rights of the hereditary aristocracy and initiated the transformation of Athens from an aristocratic oligarchy into a democracy. Solon also instituted ingenious economic reforms. Recognizing that the poor soil of Attica was not conducive to growing grain, her urged the cultivation of grapes for wine and the growing of olives, whose oil could be exported. To encourage industrial expansion, he ordered tha ll fathers teach their sons a trade and granted citizenship to foreign craftsmen who were willing to migrate to Athens. These measures and the fine quality of the native reddish-brown clay allowed Athens to become the leading producer and exporter of pottery. Solon's economic policies transformed Athens into a great commercial center. However, Solon's reforms did not eliminate factional disputes among the aristocratic clans or relieve much of the discontent of the poor."</B> (page 57 to 58) <BR/><BR/>Sure the ancient Greeks were flawed as are all people. Some of their flaws are mentioned in the quote above, and they also never got rid of slavery, or gave women equal rights. (Ironic given the fact that Rand, one of their biggest admirers was a woman, and all the Ancient Greek philosophers would rightfully be seen as sexist today) But based on the same source, couldn't it be argued that there is something about the ancient Greeks that is to be admired, or at least the Athenian Greeks?<BR/><BR/>(All quotations in written bold text)Damienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02691850040385670009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-26646578582040293712008-12-03T14:31:00.000-08:002008-12-03T14:31:00.000-08:00___________________________________Aren't the anci...___________________________________<BR/><BR/>Aren't the ancient Greeks a collective? Isn't Objectivism counter-collectivist? What made the Greeks successful for their days seems to lie in their practices of constant warfare and innovation THROUGH warfare; and their use of religious imperialism to take in conquered enemies.<BR/><BR/>That is...of course until they ceased to perpetuate themselves; and the Romans did it for them. If anything, Rome did more perpetuating of Greek philosophy and culture than the Greeks ever did. - Jason<BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Indeed.Red Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08066324554026925595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-30700130116156418332008-12-03T13:23:00.000-08:002008-12-03T13:23:00.000-08:00I find it ironic that, looking back, Peikoff or ev...I find it ironic that, looking back, Peikoff or even Rand could have admiration for an entire civilization; as opposed to merely using individuals as examples.<BR/><BR/>To admire one society over another is one thing; but they never seem to directly state that (though on occasion, the USSR versus the USA.)<BR/><BR/>Aren't the ancient Greeks a collective? Isn't Objectivism counter-collectivist? What made the Greeks successful for their days seems to lie in their practices of constant warfare and innovation THROUGH warfare; and their use of religious imperialism to take in conquered enemies.<BR/><BR/>That is...of course until they ceased to perpetuate themselves; and the Romans did it for them. If anything, Rome did more perpetuating of Greek philosophy and culture than the Greeks ever did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-46077407209130447712008-12-02T11:17:00.000-08:002008-12-02T11:17:00.000-08:00___________________________________When Peikoff sa...___________________________________<BR/><BR/>When Peikoff said that, he was either incredibly ignorant, or guilty of wishful thinking or both. - Damien<BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Indeed.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>___________________________________Red Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08066324554026925595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-39179929171323783882008-12-01T17:52:00.000-08:002008-12-01T17:52:00.000-08:00Someone give me a list of their top ten fave philo...Someone give me a list of their top ten fave philosophy books. There are smarties here and I need to make an x-mas list.<BR/><BR/>I'm serious, btw.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-27333057362208634592008-12-01T17:25:00.000-08:002008-12-01T17:25:00.000-08:00Michael,You make good points.BTW, isn't this inter...Michael,<BR/><BR/>You make good points.<BR/><BR/>BTW, isn't this interesting from LP: "For detail, I refer you to Aristotle, the preeminent representative of the Greek spirit."<BR/><BR/>Even if Aristotle were a secularist or even an Objectivist, how would that make his point? Why does that make him the "representative of Greek spirit" when you have "religionists" such as Homer, Herodotus, Aescyhlus, Plato, etc.?Neil Parillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074901258306769278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-57189684354496757652008-12-01T13:52:00.000-08:002008-12-01T13:52:00.000-08:00Michael Prescott,When Peikoff said that, he was ei...Michael Prescott,<BR/><BR/>When Peikoff said that, he was either incredibly ignorant, or guilty of wishful thinking or both. Objectivism as a philosophy looks down on religion so much, that to admit that one of cultures it admires was religious, would make it hard for them to look up to them. Because, It means that it wasn't the "Utopia of reason," they would have liked it to be.Damienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02691850040385670009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-61987405162991786802008-12-01T09:35:00.000-08:002008-12-01T09:35:00.000-08:00Where did Ayn Rand or Peikoff say that Greek cultu...<I>Where did Ayn Rand or Peikoff say that Greek culture was only rational, or that Aristotle and Plato were /leaders/ of Greek culture?</I><BR/><BR/>It helps to read the original post. Quoting Peikoff: <BR/><BR/>"Nor were they taken very seriously by the leading voices of culture, such as Plato and Aristotle. From start to finish, the Greek thinkers recognized no sacred texts, no infallible priesthood and no intellectual authority beyond the human mind; they allowed no room for faith."Michael Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963295565160636175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-24304617137856602072008-12-01T08:35:00.000-08:002008-12-01T08:35:00.000-08:00Where did Ayn Rand or Peikoff say that Greek cultu...Where did Ayn Rand or Peikoff say that Greek culture was only rational, or that Aristotle and Plato were /leaders/ of Greek culture?Tenurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05508697774184528482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-80327852542927835932008-12-01T06:58:00.000-08:002008-12-01T06:58:00.000-08:00Excellent post, Neil. E.R. Dodds' classic text The...Excellent post, Neil. <BR/><BR/>E.R. Dodds' classic text <I>The Greeks and the Irrational</I> provides additional evidence that ancient Greek society was highly religious and (gasp) mystical. <BR/><BR/>I wonder why Peikoff regards Plato and Aristotle as leaders of ancient Greek culture. Plato was a student of Socrates, who was put to death by Athens. Aristotle flourished after the heyday of Greek democracy, when Macedonia had conquered Greece. Neither was especially influential in his own day. The mystery religions (notably the <A HREF="http://users.erols.com/nbeach/eleusis.html" REL="nofollow">Eleusinian Mysteries</A>)were of far greater significance, and Peikoff would presumably regard them as dangerous mumbo-jumbo. <BR/><BR/>Peikoff also makes an elementary mistake when he assumes that because Plato did not take the Greek pantheon too seriously, he therefore "allowed no room for faith." It would be more correct to say that Plato, as a mystic, believed that the gods were simplistic attempts at anthropomorphizing the ineffable. He did not dismiss the pantheon because he lacked "faith," but because his faith was more in line with the <A HREF="http://www.mythosandlogos.com/perennial.html" REL="nofollow">"perennial philosophy"</A> - which, possibly, he may have imbibed while visiting Egypt. (Strabo says that while visiting that country he was told of Plato's lengthy sojourn there.)Michael Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963295565160636175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29196034.post-70411894941243864802008-12-01T03:29:00.000-08:002008-12-01T03:29:00.000-08:00___________________________________“Judge Not, Tha...___________________________________<BR/><BR/>“Judge Not, That You Be Not Judged”<BR/><BR/>This is from Matthew 7:1 and is part of Jesus’ famous Sermon on the Mount. It first entered the Objectivist lexicon with Rand herself:<BR/><BR/>“The precept: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged’ . . . is an abdication of moral responsibility: it is a moral blank check one gives to others in exchange for a moral blank check one expects for oneself.”<BR/><BR/>It is mentioned most recently in Andrew Bernstein’s just published Objectivism in One Lesson.<BR/><BR/>The full quote (KJV) is:<BR/>“(1) Judge not, that ye be not judged. (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”<BR/>Objectivists, proud of Rand’s moralism, see in Christianity a precursor to the non-judgmentalism present in the post-modern world. (Objectivism must be one of the few philosophies in history which finds Christianity insufficiently judgmental.)<BR/><BR/>But does Jesus prohibit judging? This appears unlikely, if for no other reason than that Jesus was quite judgmental and judging is a part of life. A couple standard commentaries might help. According to Craig Keener (A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, pp. 240-41):<BR/><BR/>“As noted above, the issue is not failure to discern, but<BR/><BR/> hypocrisy in judging others <BR/><BR/>for one’s own faults. Later rabbis declared that one should ‘remove [one’s] own blemish first,’ giving the example of a rabbi who deferred a case to correct his own behavior before he ruled that another must do the same. Greek and Roman sages offered similar wisdom: for example, one must solve one’s own problems, and only then in turn to criticize others accurately; we see others’ faults more quickly than our own. Likewise, ‘Practice nothing in your deeds for which you condemn other in your words’ which seems to have become part of the common moral wisdom.” (Citations omitted.)<BR/><BR/>Donald Hagner (Matthew 1-13, p. 169) agrees: “[T]he way one judges others will be the way one is judged by God . . . .”<BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Indeed. <BR/><BR/>Do you think above point should apply to those so-called "Christian fundamentalist" preachers and their minions as well?<BR/><BR/><BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/>(Peikoff is not the most accurate of intellectual historians.) - Daniel<BR/>___________________________________<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Perhaps a charlatan is the more appropriate description of Peikoff just like those "Christian fundamentalist" preachers and their minions?Red Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08066324554026925595noreply@blogger.com